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 Post subject: Opportunity fire?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:13 pm 
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POSTED BY: Oleg Mastruko (Matrix Forum Member)

Does this game recognise and use the concept of opportunity fire?

I am under impression it does not, which, if true, is a shame.

Opportunity fire is when you don't use all the movement/shoot/action points an unit has during your turn, so that it may fire on it's own discretion during enemy turn, if enemy wanders into range. (Of course, enemy may use opfire as well during your turns.)

Oleg


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:14 pm 
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POSTED BY: Sky Keeper (Matrix and Wargaming.net Forum Member)

It's true that there is no opportunity fire. There were several reasons for that:

1)Conflicts with Undo/Rewind feature (this feature allows you to cancel any move or fire order before you hit end of turn) that cause LOTS of confusion.

2) opp fire is purely defensive feature - it increases game length(bad for multiplayer) and would cause lots of games to end in a draw. MA has it's own very good ways to defend your weaker units and borders, but it also gaurantees that you can't win a war playing defensively.

3) opp fire is just a feature. Maybe it's excuse for someone (he was the first one to cross the line and he'll pay for that!!!). Maybe it was the only good strategy in some other game, but in MA it was confidently cut out very early in design process and I've never missed it

we'll see what others think about the rules of MA in few weeks.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:16 pm 
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POSTED BY: Paul Vebber (Matrix Forum Member)

Given the scale and the interactions between the units, (a more strategic feel than tactical - a scale where "opfire" seems out of place) one doesn't miss not having opfire.

This is a more "abstract" game - if you try to think to hard about the scale and unit density and "tactical" details (like opfire) you will shake your head. But the game is not meant to be a "simulation of far future combat" but a "strategy game in a far future military context".

in that it succeeds wonderfully (as many exciting games between my 11 year old son and I attest).

Don't buy this game wanting to get a definitive simulation of Sci-fi combat.

If you want a fast paced, 'full of surprise' slugfest where you go from "nothing can stop me" to "all and lost" and back again several times during a game, AND simple enough to play with your kids or total newbies in about 10 minutes, BUT has scenarios you can pound your head against for 8 or 10 tries before you go "duh, that's how to beat those guys"...

Then this game will give you TONS of exciting gameplay.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:17 pm 
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POSTED BY: Oleg Mastruko (Matrix Forum Member)

Oh come on guys, don't "over-do" your posts...

I understand very well this is very simple, fast paced, almost-action-game, turn based shooter, and I'm perfectly OK with that.

But exclusion of the op-fire feature is totally unexcusable for me. Perhaps there should have been an option to turn it off for those that don't like it, but turn based game without op fire is like a veggie hamburger or decaf coffee or alc free beer. It really robs the game of one very important strategy gameplay element.

Is there a possibility of including op fire in some future patch?

O.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:18 pm 
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POSTED BY: Sky Keeper (Matrix and Wargaming.net Forum Member)

I won't argue about tastes


it's definetly not a matter of a patch because it will make this game entirely different and will ruin current unit balance. Example: now your units need to have higher speed and longer range to be able to make a first strike at enemies units and there are means to increase thier movement rate (transports). After we turn on opp fire the things that matter are hp (to survive opp fire) and range(to evade it) ( you can evade retribution now by maintaining proper unit formation - it's not a matter of units you have, but your skill as a General) - unit costs have to be rebalanced, AI taught to place units at good oppfire positions and to deal with units at good oppfire positions, new units have to be added to exploit new rules, scenarious redesigned and retested - several months of development.

BTW what strategy element the game was robbed of? What strategy(tactics) does oppfire bring to A game?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:19 pm 
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POSTED BY: Paul Vebber (Matrix Forum Member)

Quote:

Quote:
But exclusion of the op-fire feature is totally unexcusable for me.



Maybe at least play the game before you declare what "must" and "must not" be in it...

Was the "Panzer General" series ruined becasue it did not have opfire? That is the sort of feel this game has. Do the Civilization games stink becasue they don;t have opfire?

I think you misunderstand the sort of game this is - you are fighting for whole continents for control of planets. The 'units' are shown as individual vehicels, but, to me at least, the implication is that a "figure" represents a group of like machines. Like In Panzer General a "Pz-IV" unit was not just one tank...

I hardly think my response was 'overdone' - and certainly not as 'overdone' as declaring a game fatally flawed fror not having opfire - when the most common 'manuever units' have range 'one' and the supporting "artillery" type units have ranges from 2-4.

The game strategy is lot like "tactical puzzle solving" - there is no "dice rolling for combat" - units do a set amount of damage and a set amount of damage kills enemys - its all about manuevering your units and allocating firepower to best advantage. Then leaving a set up that prevents your enemy from doing the same.

"opfire" is a tactical level concept where manuever units engae over significnat ranges and "spotting" - "hitting" and "killing" are fairly random processes.

It doesn't belong in this kind of game. IMO.

At least play the game before deciding...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:21 pm 
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POSTED BY: vepary (Matrix Forum Member)

Hey Oleg , Iґam just curious . Does Uncommon Valour have oportunity fire ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:25 pm 
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:o Right, I'd say that about covers it... wouldn't you? :)


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 Post subject: it seems this discussion is absolutely pointless
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:52 am 
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it seems this discussion is absolutely pointless - MA was based on some tabletop strategy game (Iron age).And tabletop strategy games usually not use such a feature as opportunity fire.Op fire is the must-have feature for a squad-based tactical simulators (Jagged alliance for example) but not for strategy.And - speaking about MA mechanics - if there were op fire it would be an end for game balance,giving an UBER huge superiority to any defending side and making offence impossible.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:04 am 
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Yes, Mrakobes is absolutely right here:

MA was designed as a global-scale game, not a squad-based.

Definitely, a single unit in MA denotes not a single tanks or robot, it denotes the whole division of tanks, the whole squadron of battleships, etc.

Thus "Opportunity" fire would not be logical.

Plu, YES it would harden the game's mechanics a lot. I guess, while making tachtical decisions, the players already have enough things to think over. In comparison with traditional squad-based games having relatively LITTLE number of units fighting "from behind the corner", MA operates with MASSED groups of troops in relatively opened battles. Thus Op. Fire option would be quite pointless and "obusive".


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