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 Post subject: Unit suggestion, Repair Vehicle/Repair Ship
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:59 pm 
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Conscript

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Here is a unit suggestion, Repair Vehicle/Repair Ship. During the combat phase they can attack adjacent friendly units and repair X amount of damage. Example:

Repair Vehicle

Hitpoints: 3
Movement: 1
Repair: 2
Range:1
Price:4

Repair Ship

Hitpoints: 4
Movement: 3
Repair: 2
Range: 1
Price: 4


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:15 pm 
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P.L. Marshal
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Vernd have you played Battle Isle 3 -Shadow of Emperor?
there were repair a vehicle "Sinus" and floating dock "Rex"
know what it lead to? stalemates...if somebody has some heavily armoured unit which has long-range fire like "Zenit" class battleship or "Emperor"moving fortress (such a huge tank) and there is repair unit near it - such a pair become completely impossible to destroy and it's a real pain in the ass...you could just bash them for a dozen of turns suffering heavy losses .Battle Isle 3 gameplay was significantly slower than MA's but still with constant repair it sometime was becoming boring (i mean REALLY BORING because it's rather hard to make something boring for a hardcore TBS maniak like me).
MA's gameplay is faster than BI's so it might be not a good idea to implement such units as repair vehicles....
maybe this is possible to allow repair of land units in cities (and this will make capitals even more important thing to have) - but with a condition that repair can be performed only than there is NO enemy units around.
naval repair unit - a floating dock - well this may be good idea but it should be slower
(2 hex move) and costy (6-7$) - because such floating dock are VERY slow and costy in real...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:28 pm 
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Mrakobes,

I have never played the "Battle Isle" series but I can see your point about the game becoming boring. Without repair and having a limited amount of funds to build more units with the game is assured to come to an end at some point. Also having repair units would take away from the need to invade neutral countries.

Thank you for your insight on this. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:15 pm 
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Developer

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Yeah... of course, while designing the game we were thinking about the Repair Bot option - you know its idea is obvious... We've even created the 3D model for it.
But then a couple of mental experiments convinved us of the fact that any repair unit will SLOW DOWN the game - it will definitely lose its dynamism - both players will tend to buy those Repair Bots and try to disengage from the battle at any convenient moment to repair their expensive units or keep those repair bots in the rear ranks for "instant repairing".... That would naturally make the game longer and will lead to lots of those boring "manual supply" routines...

Therefore we deliberately decided NOT to include the repair units (knowing that some people won't like it) - but we hope that as soon as you get the taste of Massive Assault's gameplay, you'll understand that we were right....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:23 am 
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Developer

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Location: Wargaming.Net
If you open ma.exe in any hex editor and search for the word "Repair" - you'll find an unused unit name there :)
You can also go to artworks sections at MA site and see it's artwork (released in 2002 or early 2003).

The main reason why do we fear slowdowns is because of turnbased nature of this game - I usually take not more than 1 turn a day and I wouldn't like a match to take more than 2 weeks. And if both plaers have repairers, guard towers and lot's of aviation - the game we never and at all because the attacker will loose (noone will get positive emotions from winning and noone will learn smth from his mistakes).


PS.A game that ends in a draw is smthing unfinished - you have spent so much time playing and you have to repeat it if you want to decide who is better, smarter.

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Do not invade 8 countries on your first turn :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:55 pm 
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Vic wrote:
But then a couple of mental experiments convinved us of the fact that any repair unit will SLOW DOWN the game - it will definitely lose its dynamism - both players will tend to buy those Repair Bots and try to disengage from the battle at any convenient moment to repair their expensive units or keep those repair bots in the rear ranks for "instant repairing.

exactly ! this was going on in Battle Isle 3! send a heavy tank "samurai" into the battle and when it gets some damage - load him into transport ("atlas") drive to the repair vehicle and voila - its back again.repeat.repeat.repeat.This was a most annoying part of BI3 gameplay and i dont want to see same in MA...
you see basically the reasons for NOT having unit repair is same as reasons for limiting the revenue by 10 turns only - makes game faster and easier to play

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Vestigia nulla retrorsum!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:48 am 
I agree about the repair units but it wouldnt hurt if you could repair by leaving a unit in a city, or maybe spend money on one-off repairs, that could become very strategic, whether to buy new units or repair ones that are already deep in the frontline.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 7:06 am 
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I see two ways to implement unit repairs when you pay for them:

1) you can repair only units inside the territory with your total control and spend only the money of the country they are standing at.

2) You can repair any unit (maybe with additional range penalties)

The first variant increases the value of units with high HP that are hard to kill in 1 turn. Seems like it's the only strategical change.

The second one adds "money transfer" element to the game. And I see how it reduces the signifficance of a very important strategic element: cutting enemy supply routes. For now it's important to distribute your income between different fronts and plan unit deliveries several turns ahead.

We will reconsider ths feature when we will be designing a new ruleset.

_________________
Do not invade 8 countries on your first turn :)


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 Post subject: Players want a game like M.A.X. more and more it seems
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:50 am 
Hi,

Iґm remembering some word of IPU in past...and most here had screamed him down ;-)

It seems that many players still want a game like M.A.X. and now this is really discussed again. Why there is a need of this units and features, most had told about the "great features" and "strategical depht" of the game as it is.
Iґm very glad to read about possible changes in this way, but Iґm wondering about them too...

Maybe he wasnґt as wrong as they told him...? In my eyes he was right with many meanings and now many other are noticing this just a little bit later...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:46 am 
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P.L. Marshal
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uh...seems like Ipu got himself a defender.Suppose he means me under "someone who screamed him down".So i'll answer then.At first,nobody was screaming at him.He barged here yelling that MA isn't a real strategic game and writing one noncence after another.
For those who are new here and not read those threads - Ipu was bashing MA for:
1) in MA there isnґt shown the reaching of weapons :D
- imagine that he was too stupid to notice the red circles :lol:
2) no ability to get on other isles :D
- suppose he played only tutorial and maybe some small scenarios :lol:
3) there is no PBeM mode :D lol it shows that he hadn't even looked at online mode (what for do you need PBeM in MA?)
well...wasnt Ipu an idiot after that?
And he has not gave any meaningful answer to my questions - first of all where in TBS he seen such an overpowering AI able to defeat experienced human player using equal forces?Actually in all known TBS difficulty is being increased via giving the AI numerrical superiority or/and placing the player in difficult position.
Also he was naming the faulty "Battle Isle 4 - andosia wars" as an example of good strategy. - very odd - Andosia wars was actually WORST of all Battle Isle series and exactly after that failure Battle isle gone into decline (it's a pity for me)
sooo...of course we ARE willing to discuss problems and nesessary improvements to the game...but only with people who at least got some basic idea of what MA actually is...Ipu's posts shows that he hasn't seen even the basics of MA and he wasnt able to understand what the people here was telling to him.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2004 12:21 pm 
Mrakobes wrote:
uh...seems like Ipu got himself a defender.


Sorry Mrakobes, thatґs bull****...iґm just knowing him as player...

Iґd played IPU in Chess, BI4 and M.A.X. at several times and i could tell you that he was a dangerous opponent not only for me. But thatґs past, it looks like that his clan (GMS i think) is pausing for a longer time ;-)

But at least his meaning about the AI is correct in my sight, MAґs AI is really a little bit poor, sorry...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:05 am 
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2 Guest - know what's a real bull****? BI4 and MAX both of them.
BI3 was great but that's long ago.
About chess - we dont know how good are in in them so your example of Ipu's competence worth's nothing here.
About AI - have you seen all those messages on boards like "this AI is touch" and so on?
seems AI is good enough for beginner players.And more experienced usually go play online not bothering for singleplayer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:45 am 
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Developer

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:00 pm
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Location: Wargaming.net
Mrakobes is right. MA's AI is quite challenging for beginners and it takes a lot of pleasant time (days or weeks) to beat it. AI is not designed to satisfy players for monthes or years. It is OK if you will easily win AI after playing 40, 60 or 80 hours. After you've got some experience from AI, it's recommended to play onliner with live opponents. And you've definitely lost your first online battles against experienced online players. Multiplayer mode is next level of depth of Massive Assault strategy and rules.

And real BS is what Ipu said on this forum: 1) no weapon range shown, 2) impossible to get on other islands, 3) no PBEM mode. It has no sense to explain 100th time again how he was wrong. It is just the most real BS I have ever seen. I have nothing against Ipu and I suppose that he may be a smart guy. But that BS he wrote on this forum may be written after playing MA for no more than an hour. And I'm very surprised that such clever guy as Ipu permits himselft to write unsufficiently considered statements. Is he really clever and smart? Don't think so. No wise man permits himselft such statements as Ipu did.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:31 am 
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Levy

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:15 am
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vern3d wrote:
Here is a unit suggestion, Repair Vehicle/Repair Ship. During the combat phase they can attack adjacent friendly units and repair X amount of damage. Example:

Repair Vehicle

Hitpoints: 3
Movement: 1
Repair: 2
Range:1
Price:4

Repair Ship

Hitpoints: 4
Movement: 3
Repair: 2
Range: 1
Price: 4


Sky keeper wrote:
I see two ways to implement unit repairs when you pay for them:

1) you can repair only units inside the territory with your total control and spend only the money of the country they are standing at.

2) You can repair any unit (maybe with additional range penalties)

The first variant increases the value of units with high HP that are hard to kill in 1 turn. Seems like it's the only strategical change.

The second one adds "money transfer" element to the game. And I see how it reduces the signifficance of a very important strategic element: cutting enemy supply routes. For now it's important to distribute your income between different fronts and plan unit deliveries several turns ahead.

We will reconsider ths feature when we will be designing a new ruleset



Hi all, just registered to post the same question, i see vern3d beat me to it :)

1st just wanna say how much i enjoyed MA, bought the game mistaking it for an RTS (felt like such a nub tbh), was going to take it back, gave a quick play before i did, ended up spending all night on it, im converted! this is the second turn based game i have ever played (after a good 10 years of gaming) and i must say its better than most RTS's i've played, i really like it.

i was thinking about the game after about 2-3 days playing it, repair unit seemed to be the only thing 'left out', but its not hugly missed.

I would have to agree with one of the other opinions here, a repair unit would make the game take ages to play, with ppl keeping a repair unit just behind the front line, the battles would take far longer to complete.

the idea came to me to add a 'single instant repair', one per turn or every other turn, perhaps make it ranged from the capital of an allied counrty?. it may be an idea to have a static unit that must be on a space next to the capital that enables the repair function(kind of like a repair facility)?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2004 7:35 am 
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Sea Wolf

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:50 am
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I was surprised to find a repair unit left out but after reading the posts here can understand why. My idea is that every unit inside a capital at end of turn is repaired for 1 hp (assuming it's damaged)


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